19 comments so far
I might argue that Iran is more relevant than France in your power ratings in that France has almost no standing as a military force. One only has to look at the jokes about France needing everyone else to fight its wars to see the lack of respect for its military influence.
I.E.: Q: How many Frenchman does it take to guard Paris?
A: Nobody knows, it’s never been tried before.
And while Iran frightens me, it certainly commands a level of respect. Economically, I believe that Iran holds the third greatest oil reserve following only Saudi Arabia and Canada. So as long as oil holds sway for energy, they will be a player.
I might have put India higher than Germany in that I believe their economic growth will outstrip Germany’s, and Israel higher than Turkey because of their military capabilities (and the willingness to use them).
I would also substitute the New York Yankees for the San Francisco Giants because they have more “current” players on droids than the Giants.
Other than that, pretty interesting!
Love the power rankings idea.
I agree with micraig about India. I think that India should be ranked higher than Germany. Other than the economic factors, India fields a substantial, relevant navy.
The US Navy (specifically the aircraft carrier) is one of the biggest signs of power. The ability to mobilize a strike force anywhere in the world in a matter of hours – now that’s power!
Somewhat random, but I did read today that Brazil and China signed an oil deal worth a reported 10 billion for Brazil. Brazil plans on spending 174 billion to expand oil exloration and production. China secures more oil.
Definitely a power move for both countries.
Great comments. First, great French Army joke. Second, France over Iran. France’s army is limited, but active. It is currently operating in many peace operations throughout Africa and sees combat duty in Afghanistan. In terms of GDP, France beats Iran hands down and though it is true Iran has great energy reserves, its state is incapable of efficiently getting them out of the ground and needs foreign help. Also, while France has tens of nukes, Iran has yet to get their own, and could theoretically be invaded by the US at anytime, emphasis ‘theoretically’.
You both raise valid points about India above Germany. This was tough. Pickin makes a great point (and Micraig knows this more than anyone) that a powerful navy is the most effective tool in projecting power, and this indeed is what New Delhi is creating. However, Germany gains points for still a stronger, stabler economy and a even stronger domestic government. Germany’s interests are a big reason why the US won’t push to hard for Ukraine/Georgia NATO membership anytime soon. Though one is usually loath to admit it, Germany’s past as great power with tremendous military and organizational strength also gives it major GPP power points as the whole world has seen what it is capable of, both good and bad. However, Germany’s position above India will likely be short-lived.
Very interesting idea for power rankings, Pat. I like your general analysis as well as the other comments. I would question whether Japan might be lower on the scale with their economic troubles and the rise of China in that region of the world. Aside from the #2 economy in the world, Japan does not score very high in the other categories.
I will also complement the French joke – they’re so easy to poke fun at. I would put France on the list not for their military power but for their influential role in shaping EU policy and constraining US action. Same with Germany. I don’t usually agree with their approach but their influence cannot be denied.
Turkey is an interesting choice also. Perhaps they are on there merely because someone from that region has to be. They could easily be replaced in the near future by Saudi Arabia, Egypt or Iran, I think.
I would also put Russia high although not necessarily because of their military might. Russia’s power comes from others’ perception of them and their totalitarian nature of conducting international affairs. I think the West is stuck in the Cold War and continually gives Russia too much deference. This translates into significant influence in their region. For instance, NATO induction of Eastern European countries should be a sovereign decision that is made with an eye towards protection against aggressive neighbors, i.e., Russia. The fact that we see people supporting Russia’s right to forcefully oppose countries like Ukraine and Georgia from joining NATO appears to be an implied acceptance of Russia’s ability to use military force against those countries in the future. I know this is a slight tangent but I mention it just to point out that some countries’ (antiquated) perceptions of other countries can propel them (unnaturally) higher in the power rankings. Just my thoughts. Again Pat, good idea.
Thanks for the rankings, Pat! I enjoyed seeing how you filled in the countries in this ranking. I’m wondering what Great Power would win spot number 11 of the ones you have listed. Iran would win my vote.
I would also see the UK as perhaps a little more influential than France because of its high amount of participation in NATO and its frequent appearances on the global diplomatic stage, and its global cultural significance.
It did indeed hurt me to leave the UK off the list (it may make it later), as you are right its global economic, governmental, and cultural influence is tremendous, just look at India, and its military is very active in Iraq and Afghanistan. But their economy is in deep trouble and they have lost some influence to the EU.
About Turkey, it was not put on there for regional posturing. Compared to Egypt, Iran, and Saudi Arabia, Turkey’s economy is dynamic with consistent growth. Turkey is also a NATO member and key ally to Israel. It doesn’t hurt either that Turkey was a recent great power (Ottoman Empire).
I love the debate, keep’em coming!
Hubbel makes a good point about France’s influence in the EU. I am not sure that its possession of nuclear capabilities though makes for a compelling argument. I would venture that use of those bombs is not on the table. (As you pointed out a number of blogs ago, referring to the moral outrage the rest of the world would have.) Whereas they would use their “10s of bombs,” I have no doubt that Iran would use whatever capabilities they might have. I don’t think Iran has as much restraint. Therefore, they are more dangerous, and that could be read as power. I do not know whether France’s EU influence outweighs Iran’s capabilities for mischief. I think I would still place Iran above France. No insult intended Hubbel!
Micraig, I think you’re point about Iran over France might win the day in my book if we were talking about most influential on the world scene. And that quite likely is the debate.
As for nukes, I would more disadvantage in not having them, than advantage in having them because like most of us agree, no one is really in a position to use one. But if Iran had one, they could at least threaten to use one. This is why I think it imperative to prevent proliferation in Iran and North Korea (although NK already has ‘em, thanks to Clinton and Bush).
The possibility of the threat of using nukes is also a very valid argument. I guess my bottom line is that they have so much oil. Professor Frost’s observation that they need foreign help to get it out of the ground is also valid but that help will be provided by someone. Oil is too valuable of a commodity for the different players in geopolitics to ignore. Now if we can come up with clean energy sources that don’t require vast oil reserves then the whole table changes. Fusion power, if it was ever developed, or a technological breakthrough on storage of wind and solar power (to give it the on-demand status that other power sources have) would essentially leave the Arab states bankrupt. It’s hard to run a Jihad when none of your people are eating. That circumstance would also adversely affect Russia’s standing.
In the long term there is another thing in the offing that would affect all of these rankings. And that is global warming. If, and I know that all of you don’t agree that it’s happening, global warming continues and raises the sea level by about 3 feet, we are going to see mass population migration. Most immediately hit will be Indonesia and lower Asia. The only place for these people to go is north. The areas around India and China will end up fighting because there just won’t be enough land, water, and resources for everyone.
But I’ve gone far afield. I vote Iran over France. (For now anyway. I reserve the right to bail later)
Clearly we are all missing the much larger issue: Pat has stumbled upon the greatest blogging tool known to man- The Ranking List. Everyone loves ranks and lists. It quantifies immeasurable things into a system we can identify with and thus argue and bicker. I call for one list every week!
Worst over the top liberal commie comments? (micraig)?
Worst over the top ultra conservative comments?
(hubbel)?
You know Pat, I totally agree with that statement and enjoyed reading it. The Ranking List wins again!
Very good list, although I do agree that the UK should be in France’s spot.
Second, my comment to the guy who mentioned Iran–they certainly shouldn’t be on the list at the current time.
Iran’s air force is literally half-grounded and non-functional. They only have a handful of both modern and functional fighter jets in their inventory. Latest estimates showed that out of approximately 200 functional war planes, only about 2 dozen would be considered a threat to a modern air force (like Israel, the U.S., or UK).
Also, it should be noted that their surface-to-air defenses have largely not been upgrades since before the Shah was overthrown. The few that they have upgraded used now-ancient 1980s Soviet technology (that was also mostly re-vamped 1970s technology.
Also, most of the army is not very efficient or well trained any longer. It should be noted that that at it’s post-Shah peak power, they got their butts handed to them by Saddam Hussein–and of course the U.S. easily rolled over him a few years later in the first Gulf War.
The Iranian military infrastructure is very weak, and has not improved very much since then.
Even more importantly than all of this, the Iranian “youth” is growing tired of the clerical leadership, so it is very unstable and ripe for another revolution. That of course only makes their overall military ambitions that much harder to attain.
Anyway, sorry for the long comment, but I liked the post, so I wanted to say something! Keep up the good work.
To “Comrade Tovya”: Your arguments concerning Iran are quite persuasive. The reason I suggested they be put in the top 10 was not because of their military might, which you have so deftly analyzed as lacking, but because of the threat to gain a nuclear weapon and because of the oil resources which they control. After reading your objections I’m not sure that those two things outweigh your points. I believe that power rankings however, are more than just military might. It will be interesting to see how Professor Frost lists France, Iran, and Britain in the next version of the power rankings.
Where is the European Union at this list ?
It is no news anymore, that the EU and its members act collectively in many respects
and should be considered a semi souvereign state.
China
USA
China
Russia
Japan
Germany
India
Brazil
France
UK
Turkey


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